We Are Celine

Jann Arden  0:08  
Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to the Janome podcast and show. I'm here in Toronto where there is a heatwave. And I feel like my underpants have disappeared my bomb. That's all I want to say. I walked down the street with underpants and within 10 or 15 minutes my underpants has been eaten by my own body but welcome to the show. Server Caitlin green Caitlin. I am so goddamn jealous of you. I am Celine. You win.

Caitlin Green  0:32  
Oh my god,

Jann Arden  0:33  
I'm going to shut up go.

Caitlin Green  0:35  
I went to the premiere at TIFF and if you want to see it in theaters, because I do feel that if you're a hardcore saline fan, it's like the Taylor Swift documentary but not like not like a big concert fun party. But it's like you're there with other fans and people are giving their emotional responses audibly in the theater. So it is playing at TIFF if you're here in Toronto, people are gasping I would imagine oh my god, like you're crying you're gasping you're laughing you're like you're saying oh my god out loud. Like there was somebody was like our queen like people are just like they're her like fans like her fans are very, very, very loyal about this. And so this issue of her having stiff person syndrome has been in the news is kept her away from performing for a long time. So this documentary titled I am Celine, which is going to be released on amazon prime as well, is all about pulling back the curtain on what she's been dealing with in her health and in her life and why it's kept her away from the stage. And I really appreciated the fact that she she did this for her fans to say, you know, this is why I was canceling shows, lots of celebrities will say you know, I've an ear infection is that whatever, no, this is serious. And this is what's going on. And I'm going to tell them because you can tell she considers her fans to be family. So yeah, there was a red carpet that it was, there were no celebrities there. And there was a live stream between the New York City premiere where she physically attended in person, and then the Toronto premiere. And so we got to see her on the screen, come out on stage, introduced the film, the director of the film, introduced that as well and went into some of the details on it and how amazing it was to work with Celine, and how she just like gave everything. And it's just her telling her life story herself. And it's so good. I mean, it is a I'm not just being hyperbolic because I'm a fan. It is Academy Award Level, in my opinion as a documentary fan. The score, not even just her music, like the use of the cello. Like I just there was so much of it. That was fantastic. And you see her have though, this crisis level seizure on camera towards the end of the film. And like it is, it's it's just so unbelievable to witness because it's it's an exceptionally rare medical disorder. And you're not sure what it means when you hear a stiff person syndrome or that she has muscle spasms, like you don't know how serious this is, oh, and you walk away feeling like she is so lucky to be alive and to have the care that she does. And she's obviously creating endowment now to continue research into this and she's doing a lot of this to raise public awareness about he has people in her home caring for her 24/7 and you see them at their her lifeline. They are there with her every step of the way trying to keep out everybody has no and she says that she says you know I just what you know, she has all these resources. And this, this fame and this this, even without her medical team, she has this team of other people behind her from her years in the entertainment industry. So she really does have everybody kind of rooting for her.

Sarah Burke  3:20  
Did you talk about like, you know how the idea to actually do the documentary came about like Did she approached them? Or did they approach her like how did

Caitlin Green  3:28  
I think that the inception of it was that she wanted to tell her story and that may and she made contact with this woman and I forget which other documentary she's done in the music and the performer space. Her name is her first name is Irene and I'm forgetting her second name. But look at her. She wanted to work with her and man did she pick the right person? I ran Taylor I retailer that's it. Yeah. Yeah.

Jann Arden  3:49  
She said when she walked in, she was gobsmacked at how sick sullen was and that she had no makeup on hair pulled back white crisp shirt, and came to the door. And she was like, Holy fuck, this woman is really, really sick, like, and

Caitlin Green  4:06  
she's not leaving her house. And she talks about the stress of canceling shows. And then if she is feeling sort of okay, she still didn't want to go out with her kids and be seen having a good time because she's in the midst of canceling all these shows, and fans are gonna see her being happy. But then think, well, I thought you weren't actually doing so well. And that's why you're canceling all your shows right now. So it pulls back the curtain on how that would have impacted performers psychologically to be in that space. You also see, this is a woman who has only ever known performing only ever wanted to sing her whole life. She has been doing this since she was 12 years old. And so to the grief associated with losing this piece of her identity is crazy. And the fact that she is still steadfast in her resolve to return in some capacity to the stage. However, she may be able to do that however she sounds is is what's

Jann Arden  4:53  
your feelings about that? I

Caitlin Green  4:55  
mean, it's tough to imagine the way that the film ends that she is going to be back in the mix anytime soon. There have been rumors endless rumors always online, about coochie pop up at the Olympics in Paris, could she be like these things happen and but

Jann Arden  5:12  
all those things that they've talked about with deaf persons disease is that lights who triggers motions or triggers sounds your triggers the excitement accelerated heart rate adrenaline, like anything to do with your, your immune system. So imagine, you know, even conceivably considering something like singing at the Paris Olympics. Oh, what goes along with the preparation? Like, even if you let's just put this out there. Even if you lip sync to a track that was pre done, you still have to stand there physically holding a microphone or stand. And conceivably she could go into these fits by just standing because she doesn't know when they're coming. Is this correct? Yeah,

Caitlin Green  5:55  
you watch her she tries to record towards the end of the film. And this is if you spoiler alert for anyone who wants to her okay, but she knows off for a moment. Yes, yeah. airMAX, or fast forward about 15 seconds. So she goes into the studio to perform for the first time in two years. And she's on day two of trying to do this. And it is a very emotionally triggering, depleting, sang for her because if it doesn't go well, she feels like she's worked all these years to come to this point. And it hasn't panned out for her and she still can't sing. So a lot is riding on this moment in her head. And after the second day of performing, she goes back and her physical therapist who's with her at all times pretty well. He notices that her she points out that her foot has started to go into a spasm. That foot spasm then spreads to the other foot, she can't calm down spreads to her hands spreads to her face. And then he's he says she's facedown on a massage table. And he says she's going into a crisis level seizure. And they have to administer two sprays in her nostril. And they like they're dating it, they have doctors on the phone, they're like this, we're doing it at this time. It's this much like they're very precise on their dose. But I believe is an opioid type spray designed to try to help her relax in those moments. And he after afterwards is addressing the camera and the rest of her staff and saying anytime Her brain is overstimulated, whatever that looks like to you, it could mean go into Canada's Wonderland. Or it can mean taking the TTC, anytime that happens for her. And this would have been one of those situations, she runs the risk of going into one of these episodes. And that, again goes to show that when she was at the Grammys and came out on stage, how challenging that would have been, and that everyone thought, oh, Taylor wasn't giving her this big embrace this big, you know, bowed down moment. Well, actually, everybody was given instructions, like kind of Don't touch her, like, kind of just treat her like she's in this glass box. Because she is. And we just don't know, this is the path forward for somebody with such a rare disorder. They really are learning as they go. So if she goes, you would hope that it means she's reaching new heights and her progress. But the way that the film was left you, you feel thankful that she's alive. And you really want her to like protect her health and well being because she has children. She has people who love her, including all of her fans, and part of me wishes

Jann Arden  8:01  
she'd stop. I know we can't tell her to stop though. For us. I know Sarah, but I it's very different for me. I mean, as someone who's also sung since they were 10 years old. I certainly haven't achieved any kind of world fame. I am not I would never in my life. Consider myself. Even a great singer. I'm a good singer. I'm nothing like that. And I mean that earnestly. I'm not fishing for compliments. I know what it is that I do. But you understand. I'm a songwriter. I do understand. But what I was about to say is that the stage has never been my life. I never looked at anyone at any time in my life and said, I want to be an international star. I wanted to be an artist, I wanted to be a songwriter, I wanted to be a creator, it's a very different thing than to ask fire to fame. And having the whole world know who you are. That's a whole different thing. And further to that, to have the stage for your life. The stage is not my life. It's a job. I love going out there and doing it. It's fun. If I didn't do it again tomorrow, I would be absolutely fine. I do a lot of other things. I've never hung my heart or my who I am as a person has nothing to do with music. Which is so funny. It's part of the equation. But who I am is my friends. My dog, my land my house traveling, watching sports reading books writing. Do you only mean I don't have a singular purpose in my life? So for her yes, I'm absolutely not taking away from the the tragedy that is because listen, you know in a lot of ways she was indoctrinated very young as well. You know you like I said Renee mortgage Just house, she was with this man who was 30 or 40 years older than her her entire career until his death. And there's a lot of twists and turns within her personal story. It's not it's not normal, it's not a normal, or

Caitlin Green  10:15  
it's an it's an exceptional story. And I think that's part of why the documentary itself is so compelling. And you also see her dedication to stage performance to live performance, specifically the best. Like I

Jann Arden  10:27  
said, the best I've ever seen a great, I've never seen anyone better. And I've seen her more than any other artists in my lifetime, when I have had an opportunity. I go see Celine Dion. And

Caitlin Green  10:37  
also to the way the accolades on her voice the way, you know, she held the highest note the longest at this song and all this stuff. And so she says, So now, you know, if I come out, and maybe I try singing lower or quieter or doing more like folk like, but to have to then fall to the point that she's at from where she was, that's a grieving process. And you can very much see it's an act of grief for her right now. And she's such a perfectionist to like, you go through this warehouse of all of her outfits that she's worn on stage and at these shows, and she talks about the effort she put into, like, I wanted you to see the white shirt that popped through the cuffs, but I couldn't wear it underneath because it was too bunchy for me, and I couldn't perform in it. So we put snaps on here. And she remembers the year that she wore it and where she was like, you know, it's her whole life. And yeah, she loves her children. And she has I thought Jan, you're gonna get a kick out of her dog. Her dog is like this big, chunky Labrador Retriever. And its name is bear. And she's always hanging out with bear. And you see her big cozy house. And the other thing too is the people who work for her. They love her. They've worked for her for 3035 years, that speaks volumes. So the way she addresses the person opening the car door for her the way she like she's just she is class. So I loved it. I think anyone you know if you're a supercilium fan or not, the way that the film was done in the way the story is told is is it touches on so many interesting things. You'll love it. Well,

Jann Arden  12:00  
she's got a world, literally a globe, praying for her sending her positivity. And I pray that in the next few years, they do find a breakthrough. But you know, we've looked at people like Michael J. Fox for the last 20 years painstakingly making his way through Parkinson's disease. And the light that he has shown Parkinson's was kind of this disease that was sort of old people it was the shakes that you got when you turn 75 There was very little understanding about it very little spoken about it. This is a man that has raised hundreds of millions of dollars for Parkinson's research. And because of Michael J Fox, the amount of progress that they've made in Parkinson's disease and neurological because that is also a neurological disorder. But the thing to note everybody listening, this is going to happen to anybody at any time. You know she was having symptoms in 2008. So a when shits happening to you guys, if you have numbness in fingers or toes, Listen, I'm not I'm not trying to make anyone paranoid. But don't don't leave it for five years. Like make sure that you do go to your doctor. There's so many things going on in the world right now. I don't know. It seems like there's more stuff. It seems like multiple sclerosis. Like Ms. You seeing all these young people, Christina Applegate

Caitlin Green  13:21  
and Selma Blair to Yeah, Selma Blair. Just

Jann Arden  13:25  
these young women getting something that was so rare and it's not rare anymore. And then they're talking about Parkinson's as being particularly a dominant force in British Columbia. It's there's a lot of it there more than anyone like Michael J. Fox has spoken to the about that. Anyhow, the other thing I want to touch on, please talk about Justin Timberlake.

Caitlin Green  13:47  
Okay, Justin Timberlake got arrested for a DUI in Sag Harbor, which is pretty well, the Hamptons like Hamptons, adjacent. So he's there partying with some friends and claims that he only had one Martini. The officers I guess, who administered his field sobriety test said, I don't think so. So they pulled him over. He refused the breathalyzer three times. That's kind of a red flag,

Jann Arden  14:06  
but any lawyer would tell you to refuse a breathalyzer? Sure.

Caitlin Green  14:09  
So he's refused it three times. And then, and then he can't walk. You know, the straight line. He's wobbly. He's glassy, his speeches slowed. And so his car was swerving when he drove and so they take him in. So they take him in, but because Justin Timberlake has become a very reviled public figure in recent years, and you know, deservingly why? Well because of the whole thing he did with Britney, because of the way you treat Janet Jackson. A lot of people don't like the troll song he's repeatedly allegedly cheated on Jessica Biel like there's a lot of allegations out there but him treating women like crap. Well,

Jann Arden  14:40  
this is not voting well for him that isn't No but I just want to say

Caitlin Green  14:43  
that there is an account you probably seen it if you're on Twitter called Pop crave. And so pop crave has this like you'd recognize it if you saw the icon, the thumbnail that you use, and they report on pop culture all the time. And because Twitter changed their verification rules that anyone with like five bucks Someone can can buy a blue checkmark and look verified. A lot of satire accounts came out one satire account came out called poo crave, pretending to be pop grave, and they posted an update on Justin Timberlake that people actually fell for from the account pool crave that said Justin Timberlake allegedly had traces of Molly poppers Truvada and coke in his bloodstream following his DWI arrest in New York and everyone like I had friends say this to me. Oh well, he had X y&z I was like, do you guys think that they got the forensics back fast enough they

Jann Arden  15:33  
got the lab righty like overnight they have the like number one and

Caitlin Green  15:38  
it's from an account whose handle is called poo craves. So we need to start teaching media literacy in schools. I think he can afford a driver he can afford an Uber there is no excuse for you know having two three martinis and getting behind the wheel your car like you're a loser. But question your headlines everyone question your headline. Well, there

Jann Arden  15:56  
was also something about the police officer that arrested him had no idea who he was, which is hilarious. He's like, you know, this is really gonna affect my my tour.

Caitlin Green  16:05  
He said under his breath, he's like, this is yeah, this is this is gonna be really bad for the tour. And the officer was like, what tour and he said the world tour, and I thought he has an opportunity right now to rebrand his tour, as called what tour like if he called his tour, what tour? I honestly think he might see a boost in ticket sales because ticket sales have been not very good for him. But yeah, a young small town police officer, not knowing who Justin Timberlake is, is incredible. And it's also violence against elder millennials because it made me feel like I was 10,000 years old. Well,

Jann Arden  16:39  
listen, there's a lot going on today. We're gonna really switch gears here. We have a really an amazing guest come out and I'm gonna give her a proper introduction when we come back from this short break to expound the virtues of our sponsor. Thank you to everyone that supporting the Jann Arden pod because we want to keep doing big things, don't we? Girls? We're even planning a live events. Hell

Caitlin Green  17:02  
yeah.

Jann Arden  17:02  
Hopefully this year where you guys can come. But Catherine leg. She's working on a new podcast and a documentary film. And but the big the clincher here is that she's going to be one of the women in media podcast people. She's going to be one of our creators. And so congratulations to you, Sarah once again for building your empire. And Caitlin and I are just, you know, we're along for this damn ride, but

Caitlin Green  17:27  
I'm just here hearing about it holding the giant baby. Your baby so

Jann Arden  17:31  
cute. Anyway, we're gonna be right back after this short break. Don't go away. Catherine leg is gonna join us. You're listening to the Jann Arden podcast, and show.

Welcome back to the gentleman podcast. This is your friend Jen Arden. I'm here with Sarah Burke and Caitlin Green who are both in their Toronto abodes and I'm also in my Toronto abode. Today I have flown in to see the Sarah McLaughlin concert tonight. So by the time you hear this, on Friday, I will have been there I probably will have been crying most of the night. And reminiscing about my youth. The fumbling towards ecstasy record that really launched Sarah into the stratosphere is 30 years old this year. 30 years old. We have a lot of music to talk about today. But we also have right out of the gate. Someone who is so amazing. Apparently we have spoken a couple of times before and I'm going to have Katherine address that Katherine leg is an award winning brilliant filmmaker. She's a showrunner. She's a journalist and executive producer, a programmer she has worn many, many hats. She has a real penchant for intimate investigative documentaries, which lends themselves so much into this true crime realm. She's worked on The Fifth Estate, wonderful documentary called the unsolved murder of Beverly Lynn Smith, and Oshawa girl. So a real Canadian connection their her new film, which I'm gonna let her talk about her new podcast is dealing with someone who was falsely accused in Louisiana. Without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, the wonderful Katherine leg joins us today on the Jann Arden podcast, Catherine. Hi,

Catherine Legge  19:29  
thank you for that wonderful intro and rambling bringing back the memories of Sarah McLaughlin. I can't believe it's been 30 years. That's amazing.

Jann Arden  19:37  
First of all, your new podcast, which is going to be launching very soon is going to be here on the women in media network, you know, family, so we're pretty excited about that. Tell us about what you've been doing and what's happening today in your world.

Catherine Legge  19:53  
Sure. Okay. So I can't think of a better place for it because, you know, I kind of stumbled On to Sarah, on on LinkedIn of all places, because I was, you know, in the midst of of, you know my frenzy of trying to put together any kind of piece of journalistic documentary, any kind of work these days and very tough and dynamic markets. And I was going through while the regular channels, you know, I'm very experienced, as you said, and in good ways and bad. And you get to know what you're up against when you come up with a new project. And I was up against all of it and working independently, you know, driven by passion, starting to feel like documentary would be a hobby of mine rather than actual, every providing income again. And so I found her, and I connected immediately with the indie spirit. And then when I found the network, and of course, you know, your story and Caitlin story, and I know your story, of course, huge fan going way back, John. I just think it's one of independence. And it's one of, you know, women at the top of their game, having a certain amount of know how wisdom writes, we've done wrongs, we've done things we figured it out, and being able to really stretch in the right ways. And so, you know, I talked to Sarah and I said, Listen, I have this huge story. It's not something that's going to be it's not a big documentary about a famous sports person or celebrity. So it's going to be a hard sell. It's really important. I'm basically working to save a man's life right now. It's life or death stakes. And I think even bigger than that, in terms of our justice system, and I need to get it going. And I just kind of, you know, she said, well, let's just start. And I felt so liberated, like is that the most liberating thing you can imagine is just saying, yeah, like, let's just start. Yeah. And I've been working with this wonderful woman, Suzanne Rieber, who's, you know, kind of a me version in podcasting. She's a pioneer. She's one of the first people who really created podcasting investigative journalist, won every major award and Trailblazer. And then we have a young, you know, hardest working woman and showbusiness, Tara Suri, who's working with us, and she's bringing up the Gen Z's for us. And she is, you know, jumped right into so all of us, we just said, Yeah, let's do it. And here we are.

Jann Arden  22:31  
Tell us about the story. Tell us about this man that you're trying to say from the gallows, as it were,

Catherine Legge  22:38  
it's true. So you start to wonder, I mean, when I pitched this to people, I say, yes, it's about a wrongful conviction. And most people say, Oh, it's so sad. There's so many of those. And my question is why? Why are there so many of those? And why are there so many of those playing out right now, from the 90s. And it's funny, you mentioned 30th anniversary, because this story is actually on its 30th anniversary. And I can't say too much about it, because it is highly investigative, this person's life and liberty are at risk. And at this point, we're navigating things very carefully. We've got essentially the state up against us. We've got you know, the powers of the state fighting back on this case. And so we are being very cautious about details. But what I can tell you is that this is a case of justice gone very wrong. The title of it is the murder that never happened. And that tells you right away that this is a very unique story. And tying in that idea of why are there so many wrongful convictions from the 90s I was able to look at his story where essentially a town you know, police, prosecutors and the people of this town, small town, I would imagine small town not small enough, but small town, they came together. And in what I describe as a moral panic. They framed a man for a murder that never happened. He was convicted for the worst, most heinous crime you can imagine. The details are an absolute horror show. Everything was provided to this jury to present one side of this story, and he was convicted and sent to death row.

Jann Arden  24:25  
What a nightmare. What an absolute nightmare. My brother spent 28 years in jail for a crime that he still to this day says he did not commit that he had nothing to do with the interesting thing that you say about the 90s is and people don't realize this DNA had yet to make its appearance on the world stage. So if I'm Catherine would know a lot about this. If you were a person that you know was involved in a crime or not in a crime, the DNA can either convict you or exonerate you my brother's DNA was collected, of course, after it happened, but, and as was the victims, and it was all burned, you know, 12 1314 years after he had been in prison. And the RCMP basically just said, it's our right, we don't have space or whatever. They literally burned evidence that would have exonerated him, according to him. But anyway, he gladly gave all his stuff. It is interesting and heartbreaking. And I'm sure there's pushback for you as a filmmaker taking the side of someone who's been accused of a heinous crime. And here you are defending him. So you have the family of this person that was murdered, probably pushing back, like we've got our man leave, sleeping dogs lie, let them lie. Like, what kind of things are you dealing with on that side?

Catherine Legge  25:51  
I mean, I didn't know those details about your brother. It's so interesting, but of this era, you're right. One of my key notes on this is this is pre DNA, right? Like pre DNA, what you had was the state. And they had, you know, the police, the prosecutors in the US, especially they're elected, they've got to get a conviction. And then you've got experts that they had, and the state would put up these experts that would testify with absolute certainty, to the most ridiculous things blood spatter, and bite marks and hair analysis and all of this nonsense, fake, you know, forensic science. And they would say it's 100% sure that this person did it. So what's the jury to do? Interestingly enough, a couple of other people who were convicted on similar evidence to the man in this case, they've been exonerated by DNA since but because this crime didn't happen, it wasn't a crime. It was an act tsar. It's so bizarre, it actually turned out there was a death, but it was not a murder. And this is what he will be able to prove this fall when he goes to court when they actually undo the original trial, and bring experts and testimony some from the same trial to prove his innocence and even prove that the crime didn't happen. Right. He doesn't actually have that exonerating moment. Because how can you prove a negative, but also, in this case, and this is something so common of this era of the 90s. And this is why I think all convictions from that era should be questioned, especially ones that are death penalty level, like, You got to be pretty damn sure, thank

Jann Arden  27:33  
God, we don't have that in Canada. Thank God, my brother didn't face that.

Catherine Legge  27:38  
But you know what down, there's people here talking about bringing it back. And I think we're one election away from it being reconsidered. We have leaders talking about life without parole, a terrible idea, it has never worked. We have leaders talking about extending sentences, we have leaders talking about reintroducing capital punishment in Canada, and it's at its highest percentage of favor, since it was abolished in 1979. So you're right, I countlessly. Look at similar cases to this and say, at least we didn't have the death penalty in Canada. But I know people in Canada that the Innocence Project has cleared, and they may be spent one or two years in prison for the same crime as this gentleman, but their lives are destroyed. And you know, you know that you don't get it

Jann Arden  28:26  
back again. Yeah, no, my brother is. It's, I mean, the very famous case in Canada, of course, is David mill guard, who was accused of a crime that he did not come in. And he was released eventually, and he got a fairly substantial amount of money. And we all know what happens when you give people that are ill prepared to receive millions of dollars, and go out into the world and all the people around him that gave him bad advice. But it was a tragedy. There was no way back. What is the long game here? So let's say this man who met remains nameless right now in Louisiana, if he is indeed proven innocent, of this whole bizarre, non murder murder that he was convicted for, what is your hopes for this man, part

Catherine Legge  29:15  
of this story is this whole peak crime that happened in the 90s? This panic, this moral panic about peak crime, it was in Canada, it was in the US and the UK all at the same time to that a little bit. This is fascinating, but if you were to look at when they started measuring violent crime in 1960, okay, and you looked at 2024 today, it would look like this like a mountain. And basically, at the top of the peak of that mountain is 1991 to three. And that was just a demographic trend. I preached statistics. And so when you understand the statistics, you can see that demographically there was just a huge population of young people, and they were in their 20s Around that time. and teens to 20s, which is the prime time for committing crimes. And this was the present DNA time. And we had these moral panics, the Satanic Panic was going on, you know, this idea, the Central Park Five were convicted wrongly at this time now the exonerated five, the West Memphis Three, there's all these big cases of absolute hysteria that happened from the public that made justice go very, very wrong. This is one of those cases. And I believe this is playing out across the country and death rows across America right now. And some still in Canada, people who were wrongly convicted at that time out of a hysteria and a moral panic and not really good laws. But we made these bad laws. I mean, interestingly enough, in Canada, we did almost nothing. But in the US, they created this 1994 crime bill that's still playing out today. And only because of one little reform that was created, which was a factual innocence law in Louisiana, this man was able to get his case on the books, he would not even have got a court date, if it were not for this little reform that happened. And that's why it's so important. We understand the laws that we have around Crime and Punishment, when we're taking people's lives and liberty. How did you hear about

Jann Arden  31:19  
this?

Catherine Legge  31:20  
Just my research,

Jann Arden  31:21  
what was it that I mean, out of the 1000s? I would imagine of, of people, men and women who are wrongfully convicted What drew you to this man, you said there was a body but that his body was not murdered? It was nothing nefarious, they just made up a murder.

Catherine Legge  31:38  
Well, there are 1000s of cases of non true crime it's called or non murder murder cases every

Jann Arden  31:44  
year. Okay, that is, this is horrifying to me it is

Catherine Legge  31:48  
because and where it comes from John, and this is what's so interesting is it usually comes from a coroner, medical examiner, you know, this is the power of the state where one person's determining something is a homicide or something is not a homicide. And so, a lot of times medical examiner's can make mistakes,

Jann Arden  32:09  
like if someone was to fall down the stairs, and all of a sudden the son is a suspect the husband's a suspect, the 14 year old daughter to suspect. So you have one guy walking in there and going the way her neck broke on that third step that was intentional.

Catherine Legge  32:25  
exists exactly. And it happens. The saddest thing is it happens mostly with children and parents. So you've got a parent who's already lost a child. I mean, this was the case for all these Shaken Baby Syndrome, which we know is junk science. You look at the Ontario now disgraced Charles Smith.

Caitlin Green  32:42  
Yeah. Well, you know what's funny, Catherine is that so this was an area that was interesting to me. I actually studied making documentary films when I was back in school. And I worked momentarily in the photo research department at the Toronto Star and who joins the photo library at the Toronto Star shortly after his release, but Robert Balta vich Robert Walter Vichy has a famous case here in in Toronto, where he was wrongfully convicted and served eight years in prison for the murder of his at the time girlfriend, Elizabeth Bane. This was also around the time that the Scarborough rapist was very active and becoming increasingly violent around the U of T Scarborough campus, which is where Elizabeth attended. And so the police did what they always kind of do in these these cases that go sideways is they develop this first theory. And they put blinders on and then they don't see past it. And because she expressed in her diary, some issues with Robert in their relationship, they zero in on him as being the likely suspect. He also at the time was like when I met him, he was, I mean, coming out of jail. So he had been pretty traumatized. But you could also see that he was very methodical in his thinking and the way that he presented and so someone like that, perhaps wouldn't necessarily interview well with police. And they just decided that this guy did it. And they threw him in prison. And his conviction was overturned, although they never awarded him any sort of financial compensation for the eight years that he spent in prison. And so I have been aware of the wrongful convictions, at least in Canada for a long, long time, like Charles Smith being a really great example of someone who worked at SickKids Hospital, a renowned world renowned hospital, and was considered this top pathologist who would put parents in jail for shaking their children to death. And it just was not true. And then he basically claimed that it was a failing of competency on his part, versus him trying to put parents in jail. But I don't see how you can possibly say that if you are that incompetent at your job, and being called repeatedly to court to put people away that you have no intent at that point. Like I just I don't think that was fair. And Canada thinks that we're great at all this stuff. And I actually think we're embarrassingly bad and I cross paths with James locker, who was now in charge of innocence Canada. Yeah, he

Jann Arden  34:52  
worked with my brother for years.

Catherine Legge  34:53  
He's amazing. James is I don't know what we'll do without James. I mean, he's semi retired, but If, and this is why it's so important to be doing this story, because we did grow up with these stories. I was at a innocence Canada project meeting. And you know, I was young in my career. This is what inspired me to big justice stories. And I, David mill guard was there escape and trust God was there. You know, gi Paul Moran was there like I mean, it was haunting to see that the 1000 mile stare in these men's eyes after what they'd been through. And, you know, and so knowing those stories makes us vigilant about facts and vigilant about are we sure, because the stakes are so high. And it also makes us careful about what police and what prosecutors are saying and what information the state is putting forward. They have all the power. All we have is innocent until proven guilty. That's it. And when I say we, it's because this could happen to any of us, right? That's the one thing I learned and you're right, parents lost their children, parents who were grieving their children were imprisoned, and then

Jann Arden  36:05  
they're convicted of murdering them. It is a it is fucking horrible. It is.

Catherine Legge  36:11  
And many of them are actually there's 1000s We don't even know of the plead guilty because and I know when I was at the Fifth Estate, we did a story tapping into this, an award winning piece. And we looked at the idea of the power of the state, and what information is put forward. And a lot of people just say, Listen, I'm not going to go up against the medical examiner who says this is what happened and proves a pattern of abuse. And in fact, there's no evidence that you know, there's it or it's questionable. And if it's questionable, it's reasonable doubt

Sarah Burke  36:43  
back to like what Jan was asking about, like how you stumbled upon this man, we need to know that connection. Yeah. And then also the immediacy of how this man can have the electric chair if this goes wrong.

Catherine Legge  36:56  
Absolutely. So when in 2016, I started this documentary met while incarcerated, a documentary about three powerful, intelligent and successful women who met and married a man who was in prison for violent crime. And I really committed early on that I was going to tell a love story. And that it was not going to be me trying to argue the average person and to seeing, you know, the value in these relationships, the idea of forgiveness, redemption, the idea of rehabilitation, that people change, you know, all of the things that we know, but fail to recognize when we get into this us versus them world of incarceration. And so I made that film. And one of the people the couple's was a middle school teacher from Louisiana, watched Dead Man Walking, and she reached out to a man on death row and wrote him a letter out of kindness and said, You know, I'm thinking about you like, you're not worthless, you're not a monster. And he wrote back and they developed a relationship. And they've been together ever since. And so I developed a relationship with Him. And so I have these Death Row connections now and Louisiana. And so I have very unique and privileged access to people who at this moment are terrified, because there's 57 people on death row and Louisiana. There's been a moratorium on executions there for almost 20 years, because they're terrible at it. Louisiana is a terrible at Justice, they had so many Death Row convictions overturned, and exonerations that they got put on hold.

Jann Arden  38:38  
So they're quite frightened of the fact that the men that they are holding, could very well not be responsible for the crimes that they're accused of. No,

Catherine Legge  38:48  
they didn't. They got told they got told. So one of the issues is, is that no one will give them the chemicals for lethal injection anymore. And the other issue is, is that really the federal government oversees executions at the state level, they have an oversight. And so they've been put on hold until they could figure out some of their issues with how they were going to perform executions. And frankly, the Louisiana public is really on the fence like they almost abolished the death penalty a year ago. And so they're very Catholic. And there's a Catholic side to them that says, you know, that they don't believe in the death penalty. There's a part of that their history, but they're on the fence and they know they're bad at it. They're they're not great at justice. There's so much corruption in Louisiana. And so but what happened is, is in January, there's a new governor in town. And Governor Jeff Landry was elected he came in on a tough on crime, moral panic platform, terrifying everyone about the crime situation where crime is actually down in Louisiana as it is in Every as it is everywhere. And he came in on this platform that said he was going to execute everyone on death row within the next four years. And he promised that he would use any means necessary. He offered up the electric chair, which hasn't been used since the 80s. Oh, offered up on this new nitrous gas, which is so controversial and really torture, he offered up even hanging was on the table. Going back to lynching people and firing squad is also an option. I would pick

Jann Arden  40:35  
that story. There's no way I mean, listen, there's no end to you know, the the problems in a very broken system. Yeah. And obviously, the United States is dealing with hundreds of millions more people than we as far as the general population. But I applaud you for taking this on. I wish we could talk to you for 14 hours. I really look forward to your podcast being on the women in media network. I think people are going to find it fascinating. What is the name of your podcast, Katherine leg? Because

Catherine Legge  41:09  
I'm doing a documentary and a podcast, the murder that never happened? Because I want people to remember this is not a murder mystery. It's a justice gone wrong story. And we're hoping it comes out in August. But I hope to come back and update your listeners and bring them in the tent as we have more unfolding.

Jann Arden  41:27  
Well, that'll be so great. And please let us know how it goes. You are welcome on the Jann Arden podcast anytime Catherine leg. Congratulations. It's a difficult slog to do this and it's upsetting and whenever you do any kind of advocacy work, it feels you sleep so people need to understand you know, this isn't just a job this is something that creators are very passionate about and I don't think he would do this without you know, really having your heart and soul into it. So make sure you look after yourself. Katherine

Sarah Burke  41:56  
Thank you she's gonna be in Louisiana as it happens in September let us know how it

Jann Arden  42:00  
goes. But yeah, that's been our guest today. Katherine leg Please watch for the murder that never happened. Thank you Katherine. Thank you

Caitlin, what's going on with our we've got we've had some callers we actually had some frickin voicemails

Sarah Burke  42:22  
voice notes. He says

Jann Arden  42:25  
can I never get that right voice notes. So

Sarah Burke  42:27  
our summer playlist is officially there for you in the show notes today. We have to say some thank yous.

Caitlin Green  42:34  
I'm gonna start with this one from Prince Edward Island there is a woman named Joanne who wants to add Irish missing to the playlist my my my son Oh my son I've already well who would know as a 50% pe Islander care of my dad. I wanted to start with that. But Dancing in the Dark Hell yeah. Carol I love dancing in the dark love Bruce Springsteen. Sly and the Family Stone hot fun in the summertime. Oh, yeah. That came from Denise. Oh, thank you Denise. Lori Lynn from Kingston who loves Alanna miles bad English and Bryan Adams. I mean, those are great. These are great places to start. I feel like we're gonna have a lot of stuff

Jann Arden  43:08  
is Alanna miles. Summertime, but I'm I am not summertime. So anyone who has even mentioned me and somebody did in their voice note. Yeah. Oh, and you're on that list. Jan? No, I can't possibly be summertime. And I'm sorry. If you are the type of person that has me on your summertime playlist. I apologize because you are not doing great. And what season

Caitlin Green  43:28  
do you see yourself as then?

Jann Arden  43:29  
I am just between the 12th of January and probably the first of March. What is what season is that? I think

Caitlin Green  43:37  
you're a terminal. I think you're more of an autumn vibe.

Jann Arden  43:39  
Oh god. Well, you're like

Sarah Burke  43:41  
a q1 or q2. But we will play a couple voice notes here.

Speaker 1  43:47  
Hi, Jan. It's Joanne McDonald calling and I'm calling from St. John, New Brunswick. And I just listened to your interview with Meredith Shaw. We just love her. Wow. She's terrific. And I'm getting to know her more and more each morning that I see her on breakfast television. But for your summer playlist, of course you're on it.

Speaker 2  44:11  
Hi, Jan and Caitlin and Sarah. This is more human. I live just north of Kingston on desert lake. I would like to make a request for several songs. One including Ellana miles and sunny say you will and I also had anything that is from that English. Anyway, I love you guys. And I think you're wonderful. And I'm looking forward to hearing you while I'm on my walks at lunchtime for work and going to the beach during the summer. Love you guys. Hope everything's good.

Speaker 3  44:47  
Hi, my name is Jackie. I'm from my mom cook New Brunswick. Follow Jann Arden for many, many years, I think pretty much since you started seeing you in concert. Every time you come to the Monckton area, love every bit of it, now listen to your podcast faithfully. I enjoy it. I just wanted to shout out wonder bra because of you. I did order some and tried them and it's changing my life. So thank you keep up the good work

Sarah Burke  45:22  
and who did add Jen to the playlists was it UK later was it you Jan

Jann Arden  45:27  
I might have added something I might I might get in there and add one of my own I'm trying to I do have a couple of happy songs. Okay, listen, I gotta go. Okay. Okay. I'm a very, very busy women. Thank you for your on the ground reporting and Selene cannot wait to see that June 25. Amazon but like Caitlin said, if it's in a theater near you, run, don't walk. Go see it this weekend. Sarah Burke, as always, thank you. And to all our listeners, subscribe. Thank you for making us the success story that we are We love you. We love you. We really do and we and I we get so many nice comments and so many people coming up to me and I can tell you more. Anyway, I gotta go. We'll see you next time. Totally